Incomplete Fibres


I am getting these types of fibres after running tckgen file, I don’t know what could be the possible problem but I think its in bvecs file. I generated bvecs file from the command export_grad command of mrtrix.
how to generate tracks as shown on mrtrix youtube tutorial.

Hi @nayan_wadhwani,

If you suspect an issue with your diffusion gradient table, try running the dwigradcheck script. It might provide some insight as to whether an erroneous axis permutation / flip has been introduced.

However:

I generated bvecs file from the command export_grad command of mrtrix.

If you are utilising MRtrix3 commands for tractography, there is no need to write the gradient table to a bvecs / bvals file pair, since the table will remain present in the image header; exporting those files is only necessary if you are invoking tools from some other software that requires those data in that format. There’s some more information on these data in the online documentation here.

Rob

My data is 64directions with and have 74images. I followed all the documentation steps that is given in the Mrtrix tutorial for the preprocessing and used -seed_position as a my roi while running an tckgen command. So my pinpoint question is what may be the mistake that I am making or what can be reason for these types of fibres. I followed tournier suggestion also by converting my data to 3D using mrconvert command but still there are same results.

Are you referring to this post? If so, it has nothing whatsoever to do with your issue here… My response was strictly to the original post, I’m not sure what could have given you the impression that it had anything to do with the issue you’re facing here?

If you’re trying to understand where your processing might have gone wrong or could be improved, I’d encourage you to post the exact series of commands that you used to process your data, right from the original DICOM import.

I’d also encourage you to look at your fibre ODFs in mrview’s ODF plot tool, and check that the orientations are as expected – if you’re in any doubt, please post a screenshot of the ODFs for us to have a look at.

Another thing to look at is whether your ROI is in the right place – this can go wrong depending on how it was generated. You can use mrview’s overlay tool to display it on top of the diffusion data (e.g. the FOD image as produced by dwi2fod) to verify that you are genuinely seeding from the place you were expecting.

But otherwise, I’m not sure what the problem is exactly. The results look noisy, but not outrageously so. You might find that using a higher -cutoff value in tckgen than the default will already clean up the results. But otherwise, this just looks like I’d expect probabilistic tracking to look like if seeded from a region like the centrum semiovale – lots of pathways going in lots of different directions in this region, it’s not surprising to find streamlines going all sorts of places. Of course, this all depends on what your seed region was exactly, it would help if you could post a screenshot of that too.

I am really Sorry I misunderstood the post. Okay Here I am posting all the list of all the commands as entered from top to bottom.

image1

order of the command is bit different in the screenshots. here I am writing the correct sequence.

  1. dwi2denoise
    2.dwimrdegibbs
    3.dwibiascorrection
  2. dwipreproc
  3. dwi2response dhollander gm.txt wm.txt csf.txt
  4. dwi2fod msmt_cst
  5. tckgen

Hi @nayan_wadhwani,

I know what the problem is. First things first though; there’s one oddity here:

I note that you wrote gm.txt wm.txt csf.txt in that particular order. That wouldn’t be good: the response functions from dwi2response dhollander are output strictly in the following order: WM - GM - CSF. So make sure you write wm.txt gm.txt csf.txt in your command there.

However, you must’ve done this correctly or at least differently on your end though, otherwise there is no chance in the world you’d get anisotropic (WM) FODs like the ones you show in the screenshot. So double check what you’ve done exactly.

In any case, the actual real issue is this one:

This was immediately obvious to me from your screenshots, but the command here confirms what your mistake was: you’ve asked MSMT-CSD only for a WM FOD using only the WM response. However, you’ve done that on the full dataset, including b=0 images. This is a neat example actually of why “more data is better” does not always hold (at all): if your model doesn’t use or take it into account properly, you get a bias. So this is what you got; a bias:

The bias I’m talking about is an overestimation of the WM compartment in anything with a high T2 b=0 signal. Essentially, mostly the CSF regions here, but also to an extent the GM regions. You shouldn’t be getting large FODs in either of these regions. To fix it for the CSF, you can perform 2-tissue CSD as follows:

dwi2fod msmt_csd bias_dwi_corrected.mif wm.txt fod_wm.mif csf.txt csf.mif

That should get rid of the massive false positive FODs in the CSF (e.g. in the ventricles). This might help with some of the noisy false positive streamlines (or parts of streamlines) you’re seeing.

From your original post, looking at the image there, I’m guessing your data has a low b-value, correct?

In any case, you can also perform 3-tissue CSD, using the single-shell 3-tissue CSD (SS3T-CSD) algorithm; others have reported good outcomes on low b-value single-shell data, dealing with GM signal and filtering it out substantially in the cortical GM. See some data, results and reports over here. @stellamarissanchez89 also described her experience wrt to this over here, ending up with quite reasonable (whole brain) tractography results. However, note that this is using a fork of the MRtrix3 software (called “MRtrix3Tissue”). What this means is explained over here, should it not be clear.

In conclusion, the essence of the problem was due to a mistake in providing MSMT-CSD with only a single WM response function, yet with a complete dataset including b=0 data. The mistake can be corrected by e.g. performing 2-tissue (WM-CSF) CSD in MRtrix3. The result can possibly be improved further by performing 3-tissue CSD using the SS3T-CSD algorithm, but this uses a command in a fork of MRtrix3.

Cheers,
Thijs

Thanks Thijs for your valuable response,
and tried running tckgen command again, my command is

tckgen fod_wm.mif cst.tck -seed_sphere “position” -act 5TT.mif
after running its showing
500000 seeds 0 streamlines 0 selected

Hi @nayan_wadhwani,

Have you made any changes in line with my suggestions above? If so, which ones? Are you using 2-tissue MSMT-CSD (WM and CSF) now in MRtrix3, or 3-tissue SS3T-CSD (WM and GM and CSF) in MRtrix3Tissue in line with the instructions I linked to?

In any/either case, can you show us the new FODs you obtain now? From your command output it’s clear streamlines fail to even start tracking, so either there’s still something wrong with your FODs, or the seed sphere position or the alignment to the ACT 5TT volume. But there’s no way to figure out the issue without showing the FODs. Other than that, you might first want to try to perform “simple” whole-brain tractography without ACT, for the purpose of checking whether that can at least run. From there onwards, you can add constraints, seeding regions, the ACT mechanism, etc… but it’s best to first check the basics before introducing more complexities.

Cheers,
Thijs

I used this command for generating my


I getting these types of fod’s
I haven’t tried ssmt-csd but i will definitly try once i solve this issue …
We are organising an neuroimaging workshop and in that we are doing hands on mrtrix session for dwi data.
That is why solving this issue is very important to me.

Ok, so that’s indeed 2-tissue MSMT-CSD then (if you need to describe at some point what it “is” you do here). This should at the very least deal with the initial problem.

Yep, that checks out. Note that, compared to your earlier images, the CSF (e.g. ventricles) now has much lower intensity, and the FODs are either gone or drastically scaled down in those areas. That’s good, that’s definitely the intention of 2-tissue MSMT-CSD there. The FODs in the cortex and the intensity there are definitely still present, and they’re messy (as they would be at low b-value). However, that shouldn’t stop you from getting tractography results.

No worries, while it would help with the (cortical and other) GM, the main mistake you made before has been corrected.

So what remains is the question why you’re suddenly not getting streamlines. That’s gotta be either the amplitudes for some unexpected reason, or your seed sphere being in an impossible location, or the 5TT image not aligning (or otherwise itself being incorrect). Or else, something I’m missing of course.

So one step at a time: if you just run tckgen, seeding from the whole brain mask, and not specifying any seed spheres (just seed from the whole brain mask) and not enable ACT. If that doesn’t work, something’s wrong with the amplitudes. If it does work, something’s wrong with your seed sphere or maybe the 5TT volume.

Cheers,
Thijs

Hello Thijs,
I ran the whole process again using

and generated tracks using whole brain mask here I am attaching the wholebrain tracks image and fod’s without using ACT and 5tt command and end results are still same.

38%20PM
Here i have all the files that I generated using new commands that you have provided above but as you can see in the problem still persist. and I wanted to see tracks like this

Alright, so we’re at a point now where:

  • the FODs are not broken anymore (before with the huge ones in the CSF, that definitely was not the case); improvement is likely with SS3T-CSD, but what you’re doing now at least isn’t technically wrong anymore (again, it was kinda “wrong” before, with those FODs in the CSF)
  • your seed sphere or region seems fine: you get streamlines alright, and somewhere in that “mess”, you can spot traces of structure though; so you’re definitely seeding in a WM tract at least
  • ACT seems to then be the thing/addition that suddenly makes all streamlines disappear, unless I missed something
  • So the 5TT image might be wrong / problematic / misaligned / …

But in the end, I think the key to getting results like in those last 2 photos, lies in defining 2 reasonable (separate) “end” regions of the tract. Not really “end” regions per se, but just 2 way points that are quite a bit separated along the tract. That requires streamlines to at least trace the part of the tract between those regions, and makes it very hard for them to deviate from that path (because they will otherwise likely miss one or the other region). For an example like this, I wouldn’t add the complexity of ACT, to be honest. If you choose your “end” regions well, there isn’t much reason to add more complexity: you should be able to get a decent tract between the regions. Once you got those, you should add each “end” regions as a separate -include region to tckgen. That then requires each streamline to visit both regions to be accepted.

Seeing that it’s @jdtournier in those photos there, I reckon he might be able to help you or inform you about the regions he used to generate that particular tract on display there.

Thanks Thijs, For your convincing reply will run that with the tckgen command and will wait for the @jdtournier reply to generate those types of tracks.

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Ok, I’ll see what I can add here…

First off, what b-value are you using? Lower b-values will make the results less impressive. Also, how old is the subject? Things get noticeably weirder with really young subjects.

As to what you can try, my first suggestion would be to increase the -cutoff in the tckgen call to something a bit higher than the default (e.g. 0.1 or even higher if it’s still messy). Tractography is a bit of a black art, there are many parameters that can be adjusted, and there is no right answer – it depends on your data and what you’re trying to do with it.

Also, can you post the full command-line you’re using in your tckgen call, just to check if there’s everything obvious?

Thanks tournier, Thankyou for your valuable response using the -cutoff value to 0.15 solved my problem and tracks are much better that it appeared to be before and I am really happy with the tracks that I am seeing.
Anyways my b=1000

tckgen fod_wm.mif -seed_sphere “position” file.tck -mask mask.mif -force

Good to hear. Although I don’t think we’ve solved the underlying issue really. You shouldn’t need such a high cutoff to get decent streamlines from data of this nature. But I can’t see anything too suspicious from the commands you’ve posted so far.

The only thing I can think of that might explain it would be if you’d estimated the response functions from the bias-corrected data, but applied them to the non-bias corrected data – that can introduce difference in scaling that might explain this. But from what you’ve posted, that’s not the issue…

I might also suggest that you run:

mtnormalise -mask mask.mif fod_wm.mif fod_wm_norm.mif csf.mif csf_norm.mif

And try using tckgen on the fod_wm_norm.mif file instead.